‘You can never care too much. No matter what, always put your relationships with the talent first.’ – Music Business Worldwide

MBW’s Inspiring Women series profiles female executives who have risen through the ranks of the business, highlighting their career journey – from their professional breakthrough to the senior responsibilities they now fulfill. Inspiring Women is supported by Virgin Music Group.

Since joining Sony Music Publishing, where she’s now Senior Director of Creative A&R, Shauni Caballero has cleaned up in the British rap space, signing the likes of Central Cee, Nemzzz, Russ Millions and Clavish.

Last year, her work in the UK was rewarded and she relocated from London to New York, where she’s focused on furthering careers and securing global collaborations for artists and writers on both sides of the Atlantic.

Caballero, who grew up in North West London, has had an unconventional music career. After leaving school early, and briefly pursuing a career in acting, she landed a music PR internship and fell in love with the business.

In her early twenties, she started hosting events for US artists and setting up sessions for and assisting producers on a freelance basis. After having her son, Caballero couldn’t sustain the travel and late nights that came with her work, so she took a job at British PRO PRS for Music, and that’s when she started her career in publishing.

“I learned all about music publishing, royalties and neighbouring rights,” Caballero remembers. “I was like, ‘Why do I not know about this? I’ve been in the game for quite a few years now.’”

After discovering that most of the artists she was still spending time with in studios as a fan didn’t have a PRS account, or know what one was, Caballero seized the opportunity to fill in the knowledge gap by setting up her own publishing admin company, The Go 2 Agency.

DigDat was her first client, which led to Caballero working with other acts who were part of the early wave of UK drill, like Digga D, Kay-O, Skengdo and AM plus producers Ghosty and Gotcha.

“My business took off and I was basically this music publisher of the streets.”

“My business took off and I was basically this music publisher of the streets at the time,” she says. The music started going mainstream and the manager of Caballero’s most successful client, Central Cee, introduced her to the corporate music industry.

At that point, Caballero was also involved in the creative part of her client’s careers and wanted to offer full publishing deals. Sarah Lockhart, who at the time was Head of A&R at SMP (and now runs Epic Records in the UK), convinced her to join the publisher and that’s where she’s been since 2022.

When asked what she loves about publishing, Caballero says it’s the chance to be purely creative. “Working with songwriters, you can just focus on making good records and don’t have to worry about all the other things. You don’t have to worry about the music videos, the marketing or the strategy.”

Here, we chat to her about the evolution and future of the British rap scene, the differences in working in the UK and US markets, lessons learned across her career, and more…

You’ve worked closely with a lot of acts in the British rap scene. How do you see that particular scene evolving going forward?

Everyone is saying that UK rap is in decline and it’s something that really upsets me, because it’s not. I go back to the UK at least once a month, I’m still meeting with new talent there, and I think the scene is the strongest it’s ever been.

What’s happening is we’re just going through a turn. There’s a new generation of young kids that are coming up and it’s going global. Being in America right now, my phone rings off the hook about UK acts. There’s even some I’m surprised they know about, because they’re really early.

We’re seeing artists like Fimiguerrero and YT making noise in the States. Nemzzz has a lot of songs with US acts. Central Cee’s probably second biggest song, BAND4BAND, is with Lil Baby. While all the Brits are moaning and complaining that it’s on the decline, all the Americans are looking at our scene.

British rap has historically struggled to break through on a meaningful scale overseas. Why do you think that’s changing now?

The US is taking us more seriously and I think a lot of that has to do with the internet. With TikTok and TV shows like Top Boy, they know more about us Brits, which helps them understand the music more.

They understand our slang now more than ever. I was with an artist last night and all he wanted to talk to me about was who’s popping in the UK? Who should he work with? Also, the Americans are understanding that global collaborations are important for them. Being big in America is great but really, everybody wants to be a global star.

Would you like to see anything from the wider music industry that would better support the British rap scene going forward?

I’d like to see more international A&Rs. I always say that I’m a UK A&R in the States because I’m here to help grow the music scene in the UK. Even with the artists and writers that I’m working with in the US, all we talk about is UK and European trips.

I’m not really sure there’s any other office in the business right now that’s actively across both territories. Having executives who have that way of thinking is going to help push the culture and the scene forward.

What advice would you give to any artists, songwriters, producers or managers from the UK who are looking to break the US market?

You have to come out here. I don’t think people travel out here nearly as much [as they should]. It’s a game changer. Come to the States and spend some time understanding their scene, their culture and the music out here. Spend a few weeks at a time, come to all the festivals, all the shows, be in the studios, be out here meeting people. That’s for both the executives and the artists.

The US can be quite different to the UK when it comes to work culture, amongst other things. What was that transition like for you?

There is a culture which is like, ‘Don’t let them see you sweat, put on this front’. It wasn’t easy, it was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life. It was harder than when I had my son and I was a single mom. Being away from all my friends and family and having this new normal… then the American work culture can be quite brutal. That took some getting used to and I’ve had to really adjust.

Us British people are quite culturally different to Americans. We have a very dry sense of humour, for example, and they find it offensive. I felt like I was really misunderstood. It’s hard to make friends in your thirties anyway, but it was really difficult trying to fit in with my team because I felt like I was always offending everyone, they just didn’t understand me. We got there in the end and I think everybody has a bit more of an understanding of who I am.

In the past 10 months, I’ve grown so much as a person. I don’t regret it at all and I’m finally really enjoying being here, because I’ve seen the value that is added to the people that I work with, especially the artists and the producers. I’ve gotten even closer to them since I’ve moved here. Clavish made a joke that he sees me more now that I’ve moved to America than he did when I lived in London.

What are the biggest lessons that you’ve learned across your career?

I live by this saying, ‘It doesn’t matter how many times you fall, it only matters how many times you get up’. I’ve learned how resilient I am. I didn’t realize that I was this mentally tough. I’ve definitely learned that losing today doesn’t mean you lose in the long run.

Also, the reason why everyone seems to love me is how much I care and how personal this is to me. I’ve learned there’s more power in having relationships with the artists and the talent than there is with any executive. At one point, I thought how close I got to them was a bad thing — my son calls a lot of these artists uncle.

“they treat me like I’m their mum. I’m always telling them off when they’re late, messing around or getting into trouble.”

I used to think, ‘Should I set boundaries?’ Then I thought, no, because this is my life. Especially now being an American executive, it’s not bad that I’m so close to them because their success is my success and vice versa. You can never care too much. Especially with the boys that I work with, they treat me like I’m their mum. I’m always telling them off when they’re late, messing around or getting into trouble. No matter what, always put your relationships with the talent first.

How would you describe your approach to A&R and trying to get the best out of artists creatively?

As a woman, I think it’s really important to carry yourself a certain way. Especially in rap, it takes a lot as a woman to be taken seriously and you’ve got to be a person and a voice that they actually respect. Otherwise, it’s pointless being there.

I read something once about how the Japanese do business — they’ll look you up, look up your CV, and be like, ‘Ok, he’s a good candidate’. Then they’ll spend a day with you, they’ll eat with you, they’ll party with you and they’ll have a good time. That’s how they determine if they want to work with someone. You think you’re partying, you’re having a great time, and they’re actually trying to suss you out. If they like you, they’ll decide they want to do business with you.

I take that approach. I’ll never do a deal with someone I don’t know. I always get on a flight, get in the studio. Even yesterday, I was out with an artist because I have to make sure this is a good fit. I want to make sure you’re actually going to listen to me because I do bring a lot of value.

I think I’m in a very blessed position to be working with these creatives, but, equally, they’re in a blessed position to be working with me. The amount of time, care and effort I put into making sure these guys have success, 90% of executives are not like that. They’re just going to wait until you’re popping, get what they can get and as soon as it drops, they leave.

Everyone that I work with I’ve been working with since the inception of their career and I’ve never left. Even when they haven’t been signed to me and they’ve gone to other companies, I’m still close and I still work with them.

“I’m a winner, I only work with winners and if I’m investing my time, I expect you to win.”

I always say that it’s when things dip and fall off is when I’m the closest. I’m like, ‘Ok, let’s strategize, let’s make a plan. How are we going to get things back on track?’ There’s an artist who is really big now that a year ago, things completely dipped for, and I went to the studio on my birthday. I spoke to him, told him to get his shit together and that these were the things I needed him to do.

I’m a winner, I only work with winners and if I’m investing my time, I expect you to win. I don’t have any bad stripes against my name right now. I only have people that are having a lot of success and I like to think I’m a reason for that. I wouldn’t say I’m the whole reason but I’m definitely a big part of the success in their story.

You talked there about the importance of gaining the respect of the creatives that you’re working with, especially as a woman, in the studio. What are some of the ways you do that?

I was going to say, ‘Like a boss!’ but that’s so cliche. Not getting sloppy drunk in the studio, that’s an example. With certain conversations, I always say, ‘I don’t want to hear all that, I’m here to work, play me some music’. You have to be quite assertive. I find men especially are very receptive to that. They all want a mum, really, to be there and hold their hand.

You’ve got to have boundaries as well, especially if it’s the first time you meet an artist. You have to assert yourself and you have to make it known who you are first. ‘I’m from this company, I’m here to work’, otherwise, it could go completely left.

WHAT’s THE BEST piece of Career advice you’ve ever been given?

It was from [British publisher] Paulette Long [pictured]. She was like, ‘I think you’re brilliant but just be aware of how you come across’.

Everyone knows I can be a bit unhinged on Twitter and I’ve gotten better but she was like, ‘You’ll miss out on opportunities and people will make this assumption about you. Be more conscious because I wanted to stay away from you. I was like, ‘This girl is nuts.’’

My whole life, I didn’t care what anyone thought about me and to a degree, I still don’t, but that really upset me because I look up to this woman and I love her. So I was like, I don’t ever want to be in a position where someone I really respect wants to stay away from me because I’ve tweeted something crazy or lost my cool on someone or something and it’s gotten around.

That advice made me be more conscious of how I’m coming across. I do have a very good heart, my intentions are pure, but I’m more self aware now.

How do you see the role of a publisher evolving? Do you see any changes on the horizon?

For sure. Publishers are more important now than ever, especially with this rise of independent artists and companies like Gamma. I’m such a fan of Gamma because what Larry Jackson is doing is so innovative and different. It’s about building businesses outside the artist, it’s a non-conventional record label.

With publishers, we are now involved in so much. I’m involved in the music but I also talk to the publicists, the agents, everything, and make sure we’re all on the same page. I’m even involved in the release dates. With most artists now not wanting to be with their labels anymore, they’re leaning a lot more on the publishers and we’re seeing, in my case anyway, that publishers have a lot more control and a lot more of a say. I think the role is just evolving into having more control over the situation.

“I think we’re going to see the role of publisher completely change in the next few years.”

I think we’re going to see the role of publisher completely change in the next few years. People talk down on publishers all the time, ‘Publishers have it made’ and we don’t have to do as much. I don’t find that’s the case for myself. I go on the road with the artists, set up sessions and writing camps around their tours. I think that’s going to be the standard now that the publisher is going to need to be closer, especially if you’re signing writer artists. It’s going to be more important that you’re more hands on.

What do you think is the most exciting development happening in today’s music business?

New companies that are popping up, like Gamma. A new generation of executives that are thinking differently and rebelling against the corporate system.

There’s a lot of young research kids who are getting a bad rap because they’re put in this data bracket. There’s a few of them that I’m close to because they give me some good tips. They’re really creative and they don’t get given the opportunity. When I first started hearing about the data stuff and meeting these kids, I was like, ‘Get out of here, this is nonsense, A&R is about taste and talent’ but they do have taste and talent. They just understand the data, the algorithms and all the stuff that, I’ll be honest with you, I think I’m a bit too old to understand.

The data is quite exciting as I’ve started to understand it and I’m even discovering songs on there. You could be a data research A&R but a perfect scenario is to be a very good mix of both. One of these kids was telling me about forecasting trends. If you’ve got that way of thinking but you have great taste too, those are going to be the game changers in the business and the most innovative. They’re going to be the ones to change everything.

How about the most challenging thing about working in today’s music business?

Dinosaurs, that’s what I call them anyway. The old way of thinking. The amount of times I get told, ‘That’s not how things are done’ – well that’s why it’s not working, because we need to shake it up. We need to do things differently. Things aren’t going to get better if we don’t become adaptable.

The standard corporate way of doing things just doesn’t work in today’s climate. With all this pushback of ‘That’s not how things are done’, I always have to say, it’s better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission, because you’ll see the results. I’d rather you didn’t ask me how I got it done because you won’t like it. That’s the biggest challenge.

If you could go back to the beginning of your career and tell yourself one thing, what would it be?

Stop partying so much, focus more on business. I don’t live my life with regret, I had a great time and it’s all out of my system now, but I definitely had too much fun early in my career.

I was so great with the relationships but I could have made a lot more money and had so much more success if I focused more on the business. That also comes with age and maturity. Now I’m like, ‘Ok, we’re having a great time, we understand and know each other, let’s get to the business and let’s work.’

Virgin Music Group is the global independent music division of Universal Music Group, which brings together UMG’s label and artist service businesses including Virgin and Ingrooves.Music Business Worldwide